The Todd Mundt Show
National Public Radio
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA.
Wednesday, September 26, 2001,
[transcript edited for clarity]
Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, Chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America, talks with Todd about Muslim reaction to the recent attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C. He talks about reaction from the Arab American communities, and the misconceptions Americans have about the Muslim religion.
Todd Mundt: In the days following the terrorist attacks, there have been small attacks on the Arab-American community. A man was shot and killed because he looked Arab-American. It turns out in fact, that he wasn't. Three Arab-Americans had to get off a North-West flight in Minneapolis because the passengers on the flight didn't want to fly with them on-board. There have been other incidents like that. Many Americans are struggling with an unreasoning fear of other Americans. And many also don't understand the religion of Islam. It's embraced by millions of Americans of different ethnicities.
My guest is Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani. He is the Chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America. Supreme Council promotes education about Islam and Muslims in the US and it has presented itself as a voice of moderation within the religion of Islam. The organization also plays an advisory role to the US Government in issues affecting Muslims around the world. It is these ideas of education and greater understanding that prompt us to speak with Shaykh Kabbani today.
How have Arab-Americans been affected by the attacks in the aftermath?
Shaykh Hisham: You know, Arabs [have] always been criticised for anything happening around the world. Especially those who are living in America because you know the problem in the Middle Eastern countries and in the Arab region. But, that's why the role of the Arabs in the United States for a long time is to promote traditional Islam and love and peace and tolerance and to show that Islam is a religion of Peace. But unfortunately when that [attack] happened, you know the Arab Muslims or the Arab community began to have some kind of harassments due to naivety or [lack of] understanding of Islamic religion from many of their citizens - that they are like them, Americans. So, that's why it began, and it began to create harassment; [due to] lack of education, lack of knowing anything about Islam, knowing something about Islam. So I don't accuse anyone... but on the other side, I say, it is our duty to introduce Islam as the religion of Peace and to educate more people about it.
Todd Mundt: Do you think these attacks put you in a defensive position, that you rather not be in?
Shaykh Hisham: We will never be in a defensive position. We are, as Muslims, and as really traditional Muslims, we are peaceful people. Even as Prophet said to us, if someone comes against you, educate him, extend your hand to him. Don't show violence. But show Love and Peace.
Todd Mundt: You were in the National Cathedral for the ceremony, the ceremony that took place. Why don't you tell me little bit about your impressions about it.
Shaykh Hisham: It was a great move from President Bush and it was arranged quickly. I find it a very good move from the President because he, the President, wants to show unity in the United States and [that] all the citizens are treated the same. So there is no differences between an American Muslim or American Arab with another American from a different ethnicity. Especially [since] we are working with all in inter-faith dialogue through all these years; especially with the Jewish community, the Christian community, the Sikh community, the Hindu community. So as leaders, as Muslim leaders, we know that there is no difference. That's why the President wanted to assure that.
Todd Mundt: Do you think the President has done enough to encourage people to be more open and tolerant toward Arab-Americans specially after a time like this?
Shaykh Hisham: I never saw a president like President Bush, I have to save this story for the future. What he did for the Muslim community, I didn't see it before in any President. Although all other Presidents were very good, and they were extending their hands, specially in the time of Mr. Clinton and his wife, they had the Eid prayer, the Ramadan celebration in the White House. They used to invite us and invite the leaders. And the State Department used to approach the Muslims and throw a dinner for them for the Ramadan fasting month - for all the Muslim community leadership. And that happened many time in Clinton's administration. Now in the Bush administration, it went beyond that. He went to the mosques, he went on public TV, he went everywhere to speak and especially in the Congress, he mentioned that Muslims, Arab-Muslims and Muslims in the United States are part of this great country. That's why we should think and we see that what he did for us to secure our security. No one did it before and we appreciate that, what he did for us.
Todd Mundt: So the White House and the State Department and other Government organizations, have they been in touch with you in the days since the attack to talk with you about what you think of it and to ask your advice?
Shaykh Hisham: They were in touch with many Muslim organizations including us, and we were very cooperative in general, as were all the other Muslim organizations. Our organization especially has encouraged everyone that is related to our organization, our members to give [help], and all our members around the world - because we have lot of centers around the world. We are an international organization that works harmoniously with many different places. So we ask everyone who knows any tip to give it directly in order to find those who were behind these terrorist attacks.
Todd Mundt: Do you think Osama bin Laden is behind the terrorist attacks?
Shaykh Hisham: Now, the United States is saying Osama bin Laden is behind these attacks. So what they have of evidence, they know, we don't know. But, if he did it, then he has to be questioned. If he was behind it, he has to be questioned. And what they are investigating now. I think they are singling him out and they are pointing toward him and this is what we will see in the future, [saying he is] who was behind it.
Todd Mundt: But do you think it's right for them to point all of their attention to him or should they be looking elsewhere?
Shaykh Hisham: No. As President Bush said to Congress, he didn't address Osama bin Laden by name. But he addressed Al-Qaeda, [which] means all the network. It means there are other networks that are doing such kind of terrorist actions and it might be greater than we are imagining it to be [not] as one person or two persons or three persons. It is more than that. He was mentioning in the Congress that there are many other networks that are working for terror and that he wants [to end] all these networks. That's why our advice to the administration was, at the beginning of this situation, to create a coalition of Arab countries and Muslim countries. Or else it will fail.
Todd Mundt: I read about that two years ago, may be two and a half years ago, you warned the Government and you warned the military analysts that there could be terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists on American soil.
Shaykh Hisham: Yes, I did that in 1999, on the 7th of January in the State Department in an Open Forum. I saw that as the Islamic Supreme Council, since our members are mostly natural Americans, natural born here, and many of them are convert Americans, so it might be their families and their parents and [even] their children are not Muslim. So they have to say that we are not part of these terrorist actions. So always the question was coming up, as the terror was growing around the world. So through our travels - because I travel extensively to give lectures outside and visit countries and presidents and kings and so on - I have begun to get [from] sources that there will be an attack and I saw it is our duty to speak up. So we asked some other Muslim organizations and they were afraid to stand up and to say what they have to say. So we saw it is our duty as Americans and as American Muslims to save the Muslim community. Because they are peaceful people and peace-loving people. They are not terrorists. So, we said, "OK! We stand up and we speak what we know." And that's why I spoke at the State Department about what I know about [expected] terrorist attacks - and it came true.
Todd Mundt: Why were the other Muslim organizations afraid to speak up?
Shaykh Hisham: They felt they might go into problems. They felt that there might be a retaliation against them and some negative opinion. But I explained to them that it is not correct. Even if there will be a negative opinion or expression or reflection, at least we will save the majority of the Muslims. Because if it will happen, then you are going to face a bigger problem. So if you had stood up in 1999 and said, we denounce it and we support each other in bringing that up, at least we will have an excuse to tell people, "In 1999, we did that as a Muslim community - as a whole."
But unfortunately it didn't go like that and I stood up by myself with some other small organizations, as well as the Silent Majority of the Muslims, who don't have a mike from which to speak. And only these big organizations, have the mike to speak. So when they refused this idea, I stood with the majority of the Silent Community and we spoke up. And we got lot of heat from the Muslims, some Muslims... But at least now, if someone comes up to us, we can say, "We said it before". And we saved a lot of harassment to the Muslim community because of what we said two years ago and now most of these organizations that stood against us and said, "No, don't say this", are now running quickly and trying to save their faces from [that] and telling [the] administration, "No! No! No!... we didn't understood there might be something like that!" And now they are saying that we have nothing to do with it [terrorism] another time, but if they did it before, it would have been more helpful.
Todd Mundt: You said earlier that there is this Silent Majority of the Muslims in this country and that there are other organizations that have the microphone and they're the ones who have the ability to speak. How would you characterize or describe those organizations that do have the power to make their opinions known to Muslims?
Shaykh Hisham: Those who have the mike, they are also trying to do their best for the Muslim community, but in their own way of approach. So sometimes they might not give the right decisions. But they are trying. Their intention is good, to do something to benefit the Muslim community and the Arabs that are here in this country. But they look at this as if it is not only an American problem. They look at it as a Middle Eastern [issue] or as if it was something that has to be related with the foreign policy of the United States.
On the contrary, the Silent Majority of the Muslims and some other Muslim organizations that we are part of, are dedicating our work only as American citizens. We focus only that we are American and we work for the benefit of living peacefully. So our approach is completely different. So that's why these Silent Majority don't have someone to represent them except a few organizations that we are part of and [of which] we are speaking. So that's why sometimes we might not agree with other Muslim organizations. On the other side [they] think their approach is correct as they have to tackle the foreign policy of the United States and how America has to work with foreign countries and so on. We don't involve too much in politics. We keep our situation more about Islam and teaching the Love and Peace of Islam.
Todd Mundt: But I hear you saying that these other organizations aren't necessarily more extreme, it's just that their focus is different, their interests are of a different kind.
Shaykh Hisham: Yes, that's true. They are not extreme in their point of view. They want to take the situation more politically Islamic. On our side, we take it more Islamicly and we don't want to have any interference in politics. [That is] because the politics of the United States is different from the politics of the Middle East. So other organizations might mix the two and that might not work good for us here. That's why we focus only on the issues that concern us as Muslims in the United States.
Todd Mundt: Many Americans, when they hear the word Islam or when they hear the word Muslim, there is immediately in their minds a negative image. Some people try to put that image aside and try to think about Muslim friends for instance, people they know from this religion of Peace and Love that we are talking about. But it's this first image that comes to American minds very often. Why do you think it so often that Americans immediately associate the religion of Islam with violence or extremism?
Shaykh Hisham: In the beginning of this century, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, there began to be different states. Just like after the fall of the ex-Soviet Union you began to have more countries evolving and [to begin] creating more countries in Central Asia. Similarly at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, many countries begin to develop and [each to] create itself and begin to gain its independence - either from the British or from the French. And the citizens of these countries at that time began to feel that they don't want the French and the British to control them. They began to found governments that can carry the responsibility. Sometime these governments began to interfere in things that might not suit the oppositions. Thus the opposition as Muslims began to create and invent something different in Islam. [Islam] was traditionally from fourteen hundred years ago till today, a religion of Moderation and Peace. So they began to create a new sect or a new movement to suit their needs and their benefit. And as it was evolving, it became narrower and narrower and more violent. It became [more so] in the fifties and in the sixties and it began to create networks that are strongly affected with this sect and more violent towards their government. [That is] because they encourage [people] to come against the government because the governments are not practising Islam correctly, as they see it.
So they began to give a bad image of Islam to the West and it began to grow more and more. And this is what we are seeing [today], why Americans, why in the West [we are] seeing that there is a bad understanding of Islam. They didn't know that there is a traditional mainstream Islam and an extreme Islam until recently, when this happened. Then they find out that the majority of Muslims have nothing to do with [extremism] and the President is supporting Muslims and supporting American [Muslims] and supporting Arabs...And you can see the Arab countries are supporting the United States in a coalition and so...that's why it began to make it clear today...Americans began to know that there is nothing bad in Islam, but the picture was wrong because of these extremists.
Todd Mundt: Why do you think the extremists have, at least maybe until recently, been so successful, in being the ones to form the Governments and to speak to the world in the name of Islam?
Shaykh Hisham: I don't think that exists. There is no extremist who controls Saudi Arabia. There is no extremist who controls Egypt. There is no extremist who controls Jordan. There is no extremist control of Syria or Lebanon, or Morocco or Tunisia or Algeria or many other countries. But there might be some Muslim countries...you might find some places in the Muslim world and in the Arab world because it is a [huge land area]...in the Middle East, in the Far East - that there are some havens for this network and there are some extremists who have some influence on some governments. That is [the extent of] it.
Todd Mundt: Afghanistan?
Shaykh Hisham: Afghanistan... You know Afghanistan were under the ex-Soviet regime and the Afghan-Arabs, those who were running away from their Governments, like from the Egyptian Government or the Syrian Government, the Jordanian Government...whatever Arab Governments...they ran away to fight against the ex-Soviet Union and developed this network and that's why it became strong. It might be they are threatening the Afghani Government, who knows? And that's why now, you [quickly] blame anyone that harbours these people. So for sure they are going to be blamed and that's why the Afghani Government...I was hearing today, just today, that there are two different opinion in the population of Afghanistan! That half of the population don't want anything to do with this war and they want to stop this war and they [say they] have to get rid of all these networks. And the other half say, "No, we go ahead with it." So there is also a mixed opinion about it there and that's why it is very difficult to understand what is going to happen [or even] who is who.
Todd Mundt: Is there a struggle for the core of Islamic belief or who will be the voice of Islam in America?
Shaykh Hisham: You know in every Muslim country or Arab country, now countries are run by a government...all these Arab countries and Muslim countries...there is a government and these governments are secular. They follow the secular system, a democratic system - [the one] which is now dominating the whole world. So what [they have done] in order to avoid this problem, is they created a Religious Ministry which looks after the people who practice any kind of religion in order to take care of their needs...Islamicly or through Christianity or Judaism...and that's why we can find that in every Muslim country, there is a Ministry of Religious Affairs.
In the United States, the problem is that you don't have something like that. Because it's a free country, you can practice any religion you like. So every small community made a mosque for themselves and formed an organization for themselves! And from one mosque to another mosque, you see the ideas are completely changed. But all of them practice Islam. But from one mosque to another, the Islam that they practice might be different from the Islam that the other mosque practices, or this community is for example from a certain country and so you see all the people who go to that mosque are from that country. Then in the other mosque, you see them from a different country, also practicing and coming together. So it begins to create different small small communities. That's why it's very difficult to bring them together. If these mosques and these leaders can come together under one voice, and one leadership, then you can solve a big problem in the United States with respect to Islam.
Todd Mundt: ...And improve the American perception!
Shaykh Hisham: ...And of course, and improve that. And that is why I think when President Bush invited us to the National Cathedral, he didn't invite me only, or he didn't invite X or Y, but he invited the leadership [as a whole] and there were around ten [members] of the leadership present there because he knew that there is this problem. That is why they brought everyone together in the National Cathedral for the day of prayer.
Todd Mundt: Shaykh Kabbani, I thank you for taking time to come and talk with us tonight.
Shaykh Hisham: Thank you very much.
Todd Mundt: Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani is the Chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America.
ISCA Media Coverage following tragic attacks by terrorists on WTC and Pentagon: Here is a small selection of media excerpts from interviews of Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, Chairman of Washington DC-based Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA), regarding the recent terrorist attacks in the U.S. For more excerpts and newspaper articles see: http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/MediaCenter/IntheNews/wtc_tragedy/media_excerpts.htm
